If you ever doubted that Revelation was John on acid, I'm about to prove it to you. Revelation 14:17-20 is about a winepress. Except it isn't pressing grapes, really.
17 Another angel came out of the temple in heaven, and he too had a sharp sickle. 18 Still another angel, who had charge of the fire, came from the altar and called in a loud voice to him who had the sharp sickle, “Take your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of grapes from the earth’s vine, because its grapes are ripe.” 19 The angel swung his sickle on the earth, gathered its grapes and threw them into the great winepress of God’s wrath. 20 They were trampled in the winepress outside the city, and blood flowed out of the press, rising as high as the horses’ bridles for a distance of 1,600 stadia.That's a lot of blood. How much blood? Let's find out! One stades, in Rome at the time, is about 0.92 furlongs; a furlong is an eighth of a modern mile. So 1600 stadia was 200 Roman miles, but it works out to 183.93 modern miles. I'm going to interpret here, and say that when the blood flowed out for a distance of 1600 stadia, that means the distance the blood went out from the winepress John saw, i.e. that they're talking about the radius of the lake of blood. So we've got the radius of our cylinder (approximating here, of course, that the lake is circular and the depth is constant throughout); now we need the height in order to calculate the volume. Unfortunately, "as high as the horses' bridles" isn't an accurate measurement, but the bridle of a horse is typically between four and six feet from the ground. Call it 5 feet for simplicity.
So, we've got the height of our cylinder in feet. The radius, in feet so our units match, is 183.93 * 5280 = 971,150.4 feet. Now, we go ask a European high school student what the formula is for the volume of a cylinder, and we find out that it is pi * the radius squared * the height. So, pi * 971150.4^2 * 5 = 1.481470008 x 10^13 cubic feet. There are 28.3168466 liters in a cubic foot, giving us 4.195055897 x 10^14 liters of blood.
Now, let's turn this into people. I think we can safely assume that the winepress is only squeezing out blood; it is after all a divine winepress, so it should be able to discriminate. The human body contains approximately 5 liters of blood, so we can divide our total volume of blood by 5, and get 83,901,117,930,000 crushed
Well done sir... Though I thoroughly enjoyed the math, it was the "Yes, I know John was totally tripping balls when he wrote this" part that brought it home for me.
ReplyDeleteBut,in 2 Peter 1:20-21 says, and I quote, "Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation of things. [21] For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit."
DeleteSo this proves what he saw is really what he saw...nothing fictitious. God can do anything especially with 2 fish and 3 loaves of bread to feed thousands. So why doubt Him now? Remember, our understanding comes from the spiritual side cuz we are not of the world. So you have to think in a spiritual sense and not the cardinal mind. To say John didn't see that is calling God a liar if you believe what John wrote what Jesus told him to write to be false. C'mon brothers, you know we can't fathom the mysteries of God. His ways aren't our ways, and His thoughts aren't our thoughts. The angels can't even fathom the wonders He has shown them and they kneel before Him since the beginning of time. So we definitely not going to understand a lot unless He reveals them to us. Shalom!
Bravo!!
DeleteIndeed!!!!
DeleteI would like to share a thought...just consider that the imagery is of a wine press...so the stomping produces grape juice..also consider when one stamps repeatedly liquid will splash. I think this splash is rising up to the height of a horses' bridle and this stomping is from Edom to Megiddo...See Isaiah 63 for further clarification. I personally think this makes better sense than the calculation presented. Thought I'd just share.
DeleteAn equestrians address to yhis was to suggest that the height of the blood came from how high the blood flew up in the air when kicked into the air by a running horse, much like kicking up mud.
DeleteI definitely think it will happen to the T. Just like the Nile river turned red. This will happen and we will all see with our eyes
DeleteThere are 4 fallen angels and 200 million demonic controlled by these fallen angels in revelations 10:15.. unless these are all dead before the wrath of God is poured out, those giants and that army need to be taken into effect too.
DeleteI would like to know if your calculations included those that were dead that was brought back to be judged?
DeleteGiven pi is 3 in biblical calculations, the final result is only 11,445 times the current population of the earth. I mean literalism should mean literalism.
ReplyDeletePrevious calculations of pi have no significance when calculating for a modern audience. John did not give a total so it is pointless to compare what he may have come up with to these hypothetical volumes.
DeleteYou only doubt because the love of Christ does not reside in your heart. You of little faith! How dare you blaspheme him! While you'll be in the numbers on this fateful day, those of us who stay true to his ways will be witness to this spectacle
DeleteDo you not know the God of the Bible is the also God of the impossible? Your math and science are but mortal refuse to the Almighty God.
So what if it seems unrealistic, haven't you seen 300? God loves his Children, and he will put King Leonitas to shame when he smites the armies of the wicked with such an awesome magnitude of poetically-stylized, theatrical gore that likes of Director Zach Snyder couldn't even fathom...in his mercy. And he will do it so using an army of angelic hosts, all wielding outdated military equipment…because any other way would be boring. And God is not boring
I gleefully anticipate the day I watch this while feasting upon a bucket of hot-buttered manna.
The Passion of the Christ was Such a disappointment; Zach Snyder should direct a remake so that the message Christ’s love could be better communicated in explosions of unrealistic amounts of blood rendered in stunning CGI.
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DeleteThen you do not believe in Jesus but you shall see!
DeleteWow Unknown. Just wow. Love thy neighbor as thyself. Love your brother or else you do not love Jesus and you are a liar. Do you not find it interesting that Jesus never attacked sinners, but only the holier than thou, spiteful, boastful, cruel and deceptive hypocritical religious people of the day. You gleefully look for the day to take joy in the fate of those you hate? Please learn meekness and do not condemn lest you be condemned and have Jesus state that you are a deceiver and worker of iniquity and that he never knew you.
DeleteA river is not a cylinder...at best it’s a semi circle and the width of this river could be narrow....say a foot......so the calculation would vary a lot....the problem is not the Word ......lol, it’s in the calculation
DeleteNo one is looking for anyone to see and say see? There is time to believe so you will say wow
DeleteGood thinking and rational calculations.
ReplyDeleteI calculated that Noah's flood, to cover the entire earth would require that for 40 days, it had to rain 6 inches a minute! If you've ever been in a place where it rained 6 inches in a day, you'd realize, that anyone outside in a 6 inch a minute rain would have drowned long before the earth was flooded.
Then there is the detail that there isn't enough water on the earth to cover it completely. Add to that an ark the size described in the bible would not contain the millions of animals and their food for even a day.
Then there is the "minor" detail that no wooden boat of that size has ever been built, even in the great age of sail.
Attempts were made, but they all foundered in the first moderate sea they encountered, even with 19th century shipbuilding technology.
wasn't just rain: Genesis 7:11-12 NIV
Delete[11] In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, on the seventeenth day of the second month---on that day all the springs of the great deep burst forth, and the floodgates of the heavens were opened. [12] And rain fell on the earth forty days and forty nights.
And we don't just have water ON the earth, it's UNDER as well.
The ark was the size God commanded, not an imaginary size to accommodate what you might think was millions of animals. You're assuming they took all the different species that we have today. Not so, the Bible says KIND, not soecies, for instance, 2 wolves would've sufficed for the dog kind.
Genesis 6:20 NIV
[20] Two of every kind of bird, of every kind of animal and of every kind of creature that moves along the ground will come to you to be kept alive.
It comes down to, do you believe the Bible or not. We weren't therr so we have to take the written account by people that were there. Think of times you've heard or read something that mad absolutely no sense to you, but given more information or then seeing it for yourself, the first account you received now makes perfect sense.
Be careful how you question God. Remember He's God? You're not. He is capable of a lot more than you could ever imagine. And He has warned us many times in many different ways what will happen if we continue to turn from Him and deny Him. The world in its sin sits under the wrath of God, us sinners included. The only way to escape God's wrath upon the earth is to put our faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. He died on the cross taking the wrath of God upon Himself on our behalf so that by faith in Him, by submitting to Him and following Him as Lord, we are saved from the wrath to come and washed clean of our sins by the power of His blood. We've all broken God's law in one way or another. No one is perfect. We need to be rescued and Jesus is offering that escape. He says if we will confess and repent of our sins and put our trust in Him as Lord and follow Him, He WILL save us. He loves us. He loves you, more than you can ever imagine. He willingly went to the cross and took your punishment for your sins upon Himself so that you could be saved from God's judgement and eternal wrath on sin. Trust Him today. The time written about in Revelation is not far off.
By the way, the estimated amount of "grapes" was around 11,000 the times of people in the earth today. The Bible just used grapes as a metaphor. It doesn't necessarily mean they were all living at the time. Some scholars believe the earth is only somewhere between 10,000 and 20,000 years old. Now if approx 11,000 - 12,000 years of people were harvested, living and dead, and the earth is about 15,000 years old, then that calculation makes sense. Remember it's just a metaphor for God's judgement.
Just another way of looking at it.
Also remember, our understanding is limited. It's great to dig into the Word of God to study it. But if you find yourself at a subject that doesn't make sense, dig further. There's usually something there that sheds light on it and brings it into perfect alignment. I've gone over a lot of "discrepancies" only to find they weren't discrepancies at all. More understanding just needed to be added through a little more digging and studying.
It's up to you whether to believe or not. But God is clear, believe and receive Him to everlasting life, or reject Him to everlasting judgement and torment. The world sits under God's wrath. He offers a way to escape it through Jesus Christ. The choice is up to us.
To P Howard, what an awesome response, you where so kind and not critical of the previous thoughts at all. I really enjoyed reading your response, Thank you and blessings to you my friend, you may have just lead some to Christ
DeleteI Am certain that many people seeking answers (like me) stumbling across this read will realize that God,,,, OUR GOD! Is a very loving God that gave us His ONLY SON. can you imagine giving up your only child? for the sins of all mankind? THATS AWESOME.
DeleteOh, and one thing P Howard didn't mention. Not only was there the Fountains of the Great Deep. The rain was by God, therefore, God could have made it rain as much as needed, so the problem of not being enough water is inaccurate.
DeleteAlso, there was a layer of water that encompassed the whole earth in space. That is why it was a paradise garden. The humidity was all the moisture they needed. That , and it blocked UV rays, that is why they lived so long.
DeleteDon't forget that the earth was fairly flat at the time of the flood with uplift occurring around the same time (many Bible verses). That's why Darwin found seashells on top of the Andes, which without the Bible is otherwise inexplicable. So plenty of water existed to cover the earth. And after the greatest earthquake to come on the day of the Lord, the earth will again be fairly flat (many verses).
DeleteHas anyone calculated how much water it would take to cover the earth and its mountains? Where did that amount of water come from and where did that amount go?
DeleteYou're right that 1600 is likely symbolic. The number 40 in the Bible is sometimes called the "number of probation or trial," and 1600 is 40 squared. So I guess maybe John's trying to say the end times will bring some seriously serious trials.
ReplyDeleteWhether or not it's supposed to be literal, though, the math aspect was still interesting.
i like this article and how you show respect to all, and showed it mathematically simple even to me (not a math kind of guy) i just had a question, wouldn't the 83 billion be representing "people" from before, during and after this generation?
ReplyDeleteand by "people" how do you know for sure the grape clusters represent people?
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ReplyDeleteRead the whole Bible before making a judgement, not just take those things that you dont understand to prove your point... Just a suggestion.
ReplyDeleteAnd learn the gospel and show faith like Christ called us to do, I appreciate your response
DeleteI've always heard this was a river 1600 stadia long of unknown width, not a lake. So let's say 971,150.4 feet long, 5 feet high, and I dunno, 10 feet wide. That's 48,557,520 cu ft, or 1,714,792 litres. This would come out of 342,958 people, well within our population. The river could be over 100 feet wide and it would still work.
ReplyDeleteslrman, if you read Genesis you would see water didn't just come from rain, but also from "the fountains of the deep" Plus, many Creationists believe there was a dome of water above the earth. The sky was created between water and water in Genesis 1. This would account for where all the excess water came from. There wouldn't need to be millions of animals as every species could have descended from a common familial ancestor (eg. wolves, foxes, and dogs, etc, only needed 2 canine ancestors on the ark). How many animal families (excluding fish) are there? Probably enough that could fit 2 small, young members of each into the ark.
The bible says that there will be
DeleteRevelation 9:16
16 And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them, 200 thousand thousands
Where as the average adult contains 1.2 gallons of blood for a total of 240,000,000 gallons of blood. So, this certainly would be feasible as you describe.
Sorry Gary, but 200 million gallons isn't enough. Not even remotely close to the more than 10-15 trillion people required. Just say it's a miracle and be done with it. A miracle is required for earth to be older than the sun as stated in Genesis, and miracles were needed for God stopping the sun in the sky for hours on end, an anngel single handedly killing an army of Israels enemies and countless other natural law defying actions, thus trying to argue with an atheist using numbers and science regarding anything in the Bible is pointless.
DeleteGood reply, James. A winepress seems to have a consistent spout, the width may be just a few inches and a wall be wall whether thick or thin.
ReplyDeleteGoing back to the days of Noah, when there were giants in those days, they were about 5 times larger than us, 25 feet, two and a half stories, being the average height compared to the average height of man today. The formula for figuring out the height of an angel is given in Revelation.
Going back further, Adam and Eve had MANY children, many children before the fall. After the fall is when God cursed the woman and made childbirth painful, so then Eve and Adam only had a few children, those being daughters of men. The former children, children of God, of perfect, sinless, un-corrupted beings, were told not to intermarry with the blemished, imperfect children of Adam and Eve. They did all as symbolism for the angels who fell from heaven because they coveted something imperfect, and we humans are those fallen angels given our chance at redemption back to heaven.
No one goes to heaven who hasn't first come from heaven - Lord Jesus
This is assuming that the blood flowing is a cylinder. Perhaps what was revealed was simply a straight river... It is not clearly stated
ReplyDelete1600 stadia us the distance between the two extreme cities in Sicilia.
ReplyDeleteShe is the woman dressed with the sun with the 12 stars above her and half moon below her.
This is an island between United Europe and Islamic states.
I also did the calculation based off of squared miles, but that is just a guess as we don't know if it's a trench a foot wide? A furlong is 1/8 of a mile so 1,600 furlongs is 200 miles. A horses bridle is on average 4-6' so I went with 4'. Next I converted the 200 square mile lake to acres which would be a 128,000 acre lake. 1" of rain over an area of 1 acre is 27,154 gallons. 27,154 * 128,000 is 3,475,712,000 gallons for 1" depth of water over 128,000 acres. Multiply that number by 48 (4') and you get 166,834,176,000 gallons (631,536,055,804 liters) in a 128,000 acre lake 4' deep. Now when juicing (pressing) you get all of the juices out of the grape, so assuming this all of the fluids would be pressed out (or spilled as the press is a parable) of the person not just blood (the fluid would still be red though diluted). The human body has 40 liters of fluid so divide the 631,536,055,804 liters by 40 and you get 15,788,401,395 people required to fill said lake. That is slightly more that double the current population of the earth. While that is a lot of people it is not an astronomical number that would make this inconceivable. Like I said this is mere speculation as we don't have all of the dimensions necessary to accurately conclude how much blood there would be in his vision.
ReplyDeleteThe math that is used makes no sense at all. First it never says anything about a lake but that it came out of the winepress for 1600 stadia. I take that as one direction only. Also when we compair to other verses we know that it is talking about the valy of decision outside of Jerusalem. I can't remember the name but it is the valley where they have dug graves and tombs cor centuries located just outside of lower Jerusalem. Sense it is a valley and the blood is flowing in one direction away from Jerusalem it will not be one hight but will travel untill the ground of the valley floor rises to equal the hight of the of the bridal. Oh yes the Arabian horses native to the area are quite a bit shorter than the typical American quarterhorse. And smaller still when you take away 2000 years of breading that has taken place sense then. So we now bave an area of determined width a length of 184 miles acording to my Bible and a depth that varies with terrain and becomes increasingly shallow as the vally floor rises. So I won't claim to be able to do the math but you missed it by multiples of billions of gallons and in the past I have heard someone who did work it out using the actual measurements of the real valley and the size of the armies that are slelled out as being at the battle of Armageddon and it works out quite nicely. Unless of course its your blood.
ReplyDeleteAs I mentioned we don't know all the true dimensions (length, width, depth). I purposely chose a lake example as an extreme case scenario in order to show how far off the op was in his mockery of the scripture, (mocking the mocker) not in an effort to literally figure out the amount of blood in the vision as we don't have all the variables to do so 🙂.
DeleteThe math that is used makes no sense at all. First it never says anything about a lake but that it came out of the winepress for 1600 stadia. I take that as one direction only. Also when we compair to other verses we know that it is talking about the valy of decision outside of Jerusalem. I can't remember the name but it is the valley where they have dug graves and tombs cor centuries located just outside of lower Jerusalem. Sense it is a valley and the blood is flowing in one direction away from Jerusalem it will not be one hight but will travel untill the ground of the valley floor rises to equal the hight of the of the bridal. Oh yes the Arabian horses native to the area are quite a bit shorter than the typical American quarterhorse. And smaller still when you take away 2000 years of breading that has taken place sense then. So we now bave an area of determined width a length of 184 miles acording to my Bible and a depth that varies with terrain and becomes increasingly shallow as the vally floor rises. So I won't claim to be able to do the math but you missed it by multiples of billions of gallons and in the past I have heard someone who did work it out using the actual measurements of the real valley and the size of the armies that are slelled out as being at the battle of Armageddon and it works out quite nicely. Unless of course its your blood.
ReplyDeleteyou're assuming you're right on your ideas but how about if the winepress was on a hill? the blood would not go 360 degrees at that distance. also, you need to consider the bodies, the gear, the vehicles, the landscape is going to take some of that space too.
ReplyDeleteyou are overthinking this, yes, those are analogies but you dont need to break your head too much to know it just means A LOT of people is going to die in a single event... and it will be horrific to watch.
The measure is unusual: blood flows as high as horse's bridle, and 1600 stadia long. It sounds confusing because it appears something is missing there. Blood occupies space, and three dimensions are required to define space. But only two measures are given, and then, almost two: what is descriptive measure called ‘horse's bridle’, juxtaposed to the very exacting 1600 stadia?
ReplyDeleteHowever, let's not give up, nor try to invent more variables. I think there is a twist already, in the description. Why would horse's bridle be mentioned? Is final harvest killing of horses, or of wicked men who ride horses?
Then, in Chapter 19, which reads similar to Chapter 14, angels come to announce Christ's claim to his kingdom, and the harvest of the world begins: armies on horses are assembled both in heaven, and on earth, and kings of earth and their captains are assembled to fight against the Son of Man. All of enemies are eventually slaughtered. (Which we read in a more symbolic manner in Ch 14 already.)
Observe this, following the same metaphor: if armies are arrayed, horsemen next to each other in battle formation, how many horses (read: horsemen), arrayed like that, can fit in 1600 stadia?
Another point: horses are of different sizes, same as men are of different sizes. Both can be as small as 1.4m or as tall as 2m. However, horse's bridle is at human's height, and that point is at the same height as horse's withers — where horse's height is measured.
Wine's press in the vineyard, means, every drop of blood will be squeezed. From whom? From the vines in the vineyard of God. Real vines yield in blood? I don't think so: it is obviously men's blood — those inside vineyard, who were supposed to take care of it, but were negligent (see the parable from the Gospel) and declared to riot against the owner of the vineyard.
Interesting post by why did you assume that we are talking about a lake? It seems more accurate to calculate this as a river. If you oversimplify a river as a straight cube and take the current population of the world then you get a 5ft x 183.9mi x 1.5mi river. That doesn't sound as ridiculous. Next time maybe make your straw man with fewer holes (i.e., more thought through assumptions)
ReplyDeleteIf you think about it, how big was God's winepress? Did he crush all the (grapes) at once? But if the grapes got crushed in separate groups, the winpress would've been a super-fast, extremely fast, machine to create a river as high as a horse's bridle and 1600 stadia long. The valley concept sounds about right because if the grapes got pressed on open landscape. The stuff (blood) would've spread out making it extrenely hard to have a river a horse's bridle high.
ReplyDeleteIn text, there is no mention of second or third dimension, to conclude we are to come up with geometric or stereometric calculation. The lake, river, stream, or anything else, cannot be defined. Because the size of only one dimension is given, and a descriptive variable added with no exacting number, we can use them to calculate *frequency only* (frequency as in "number of something").
ReplyDeleteThere is another way to look at this. Let's say it is a river, not a lake. How many humans would that equate to? Modelling the river as a half-pipe gives the number as 0.5 * pi * r^2 * d / v, where r is the height of a horse's bridles, d is 1600 stadia, and v is the volume of blood in a human. The height of a bridle is about human height, let's say 1.6 m; 1600 stadia is 1600 * 125 passus (passus = double step, about 1.5m); the volume of blood in a human is about 5 litres, and there are 1000 litres in a cubic metre. So, N = 0.5 * pi * 1.6^2 * (1600 * 125 * 1.5) * 1000 / 5 = 241274316. John says the pit where the "grapes" are crushed is outside the city. Could this be an army standing against Jerusalem? (Cf. the rest of John's Apocalypse.) Decoding John's information in this way results in a message that says he saw an army of 240 million camped outside Jerusalem and about to be crushed.
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ReplyDeleteThe passage states that the length is 1600 stadia or approximately 200 miles or 300 kilometres, not double that as was initially written by Mathew. Furthermore there is no way that the blood is consistent in height due to hills in the region. It must refer to pooling of blood and in certain locations the pooling would be”as high as a horse’s bridle’. Streams of blood from men and horses would flow into cavities. John does not say that it is a lake or circular just that the blood reaches up to a certain height. This does reflect death from a battle scene the likes of which has never been seen before but it is consistent with the size of a coalition army which has never yet been assembled. The size of this assembled army (200 million) is within realm of possibility as the earth’s current population is 7.2 billion - a gathering of 2.8% of today’s population, let alone what it would be in the future.
ReplyDeleteThe size of the army is not ‘impossible’ with today’s demographics but it would have been in John’s day as the population of the entire earth then is estimated at 300 million of which 45 million were in the Roman Empire. The fact that we now have a world population that can muster up an army the size of which John prophesied is quite amazing in and of itself.
"200 million" ... How did you calculate this number?
ReplyDeleteAs for horse's bridle, I think further references must be found to understand why that measure, and not some other measure, was used to illustrate a massacre (in lack of better words) across 1600 stadia. Other mention of horse's bridle appears earlier, in description of the riders of the Apocalypse; one rider's description has a mention of it ...
This person is saying that John was hallucinating as to infer some drug trip?
ReplyDeleteYour calculation leaves out that the fact that the valley of Megido is 58 x 24 and that is where the 200 000 000 man army will fight... so it is clear from the bible that the number of squashed bodies are 200 000 000.
Please refrain from ignorance and assume that because it doesn't make sense to you, as if you are all knowledge, it must be symbolic... that is the apostasy in you talking.
Hey guys.. has any one ever thought that this is the approx number of people tjat will be currently in hell.
ReplyDeleteDamn thats alot 83,901,117,930,000
Impossible. Almost 84 trillion people? 104 billion is the highest estimate of combined people ever alive on earth possible and that is orders of magnitude less if God only made earth 6000 years ago. Even if you added every species of hominid besides homosapien, heck even if you added every species of frigging monkey that existed over a few million years to that list you would only be able to raise that number a tiny, tiny fraction of 84 trillion. God operates via miracles. Arguing with atheists via modern science and numbers is like thinking you can pop the sun by throwing a toothpick out your window.
Deletei would love if you could possibly also do a calculation about how much blood has been spilled by the acts of the modern day genocide, which is said trough Gods Word spoken by modern day prophets been infecting other countries of the world from Washington, afai remember it.
ReplyDeletethe red in the USA flag could be blood..
ReplyDeletehttps://testimonyofthetwowitnesses.com/images/FlagRiver16x901.jpg
https://testimonyofthetwowitnesses.com/For-the-Judgement-of-the-Nations-3.php
The math displayed above by the author is shameful and so so wrong!!!
ReplyDeleteThe bible says that blood "flowed" from the winepress. Rivers flow, lakes do not, so you can't assume it was a lake of blood at all. It was a river of blood 184 miles (971,520 ft) long and 5 feet high. A river can be accurately approximated as a half of a cylinder 184 miles long (or high) and 5 feet deep (to use the authors figure), with a volume of volume 0.5*pi*(5 feet)^2 * (184 miles * 5280 feet/mile) = 38151501.1852 cubic feet (ft^3)... Converting ft^3, into liters produces 1,080,330,206.315815 liters of blood and at 5L per human ==> only 216,066,041 human beings!!! This is a mere 2.5% of our current population, assuming 8 billion folks on earth today...
Very...Very...Realistic...Numbers of about 200M people killed.
Author assumed or hoped that most folks here are mathematically dumb and wouldn't check his prideful, arrogant and erroneous remarks.
Wonderful! GOD Bless you for good calculations. How wide was river? I believe your river was 5 ft wide? Good start- lots of variables to think about.
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ReplyDeleteHave you considered the thought that Gog and Magog together with Armageddon is possibly the same time?!? When you measure the two in distance you get a distance of 184 miles. It's not just the blood of men but horses to.
ReplyDeleteHave you consideredthe effects of a neutron bombs which are basically as described by Zechariah 14:12 "And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth." Neutrons react with hydrogen in water to turn it to plasma. Hence, the whole body, starting with wet exposed areas of eyes and mouths, basically turns into a liquid plasma, or blood, apart from the bones. And that explains why during the Millennium people are going around burying bones, the remnants of what did not liquefy and what the predatory birds left.
DeleteActually on average the human adult has between 9-12 Liters of blood. Up to recent times most physician want to push blood transfusions when at 8 or less L.
ReplyDeleteHi Unknown,
ReplyDeletePlease allow me to introduce myself. My name is Damien, and I am an atheist blogger and activist from Australia.
The reason for my email is to let you know that I have linked to an article your website in regards to a blog piece I have written that discusses religion and morality:
Blog: https://www.idontneedfaithtobeanatheist.com/2019/10/sorry-guys-its-still-immoral-response.html
If you have any questions, feedback or corrections, I am more than happy to have a conversation.
Many sincere regards,
Damien
quiterationaldad@gmail.com
http://www.idontneedfaithtobeanatheist.com
I am a math geek so see below and see the real possibility that this is a literal rendering. The former postings have used pi in their calculations and there is no definitive reason that this has to be a circle. This represents the battle of Armageddon on the plains of Megiddo. This blood could very easily flow into a river or ravine that is 10-100 feet wide and could give these numbers. See the following math for details:
ReplyDeleteAverage amount of blood in a human - 1.5 gallons. 1 cubic foot of water (or blood) is around 7.5 gallons
184 miles x 5280 ft/miles = 971,520 feet long
Assuming 1 foot wide for now for easier math and we can go back to this later and figure in a differing width
We know a horse's bridle is around 4 feet high. This gives us an ability to create a ft3 and compare it to gallons
971,520 ft long x 1 ft wide x 4 ft deep = 3,886,080 ft3
(remember: 1 ft3=7.5 gallons - so multiple the ft3 by 7.5 to get gallons)
So this would be 29,145,600 gallons --> this would calculate to 19,430,400 people’s blood needed to be this much for a literal interpretation. (Remember that each person has around 1.5 gallons of blood - so you need to divide the gallons calculated by 1.5)
If we want to assume this amount of blood is a 10 ft wide trough instead of a 1 ft trough we just multiply the number by 10 --> Meaning 194,3004,000 people.
If we assume this amount of blood is a 100 foot wide trough/river that it drains into - we get 1,943,040,000 people. Even with this wide of a ravine we would see it is very possible to still have that many people on earth at this time of judgment. The world’s population is exploding. Today we have 7.8 billion people. It is estimated that by 2060 we may have over 10 billion people on earth.
Hope this helps. I think leaning toward a literal interpretation of Scripture is always the wisest approach in most cases - unless it is crystal clear that it is symbolic. I see this as a literal account.
Enjoyed your math, it's unfortunate that the only stumbling block is the assumption of a 200 mile river as opposed to a 200 mile diameter. I tend to lean towards spilled blood's natural state... a puddle. And a magnified puddle size will more closely resemble a lake as opposed to a river. Just my 2 cents, blessings!
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ReplyDeleteThank you for your post. I do believe what you calculated could be more than possible. Especially when we link Rev. 14:20 with Rev. 9:18 where it is stated that 1/3 of mankind will be killed. Our God provided these details so people can repent and be saved and be able to spend eternity with Him.
ReplyDelete“By these three plagues a third of mankind was killed—by the fire and the smoke and the brimstone which came out of their mouths. For their power is in their mouth and in their tails; for their tails are like serpents, having heads; and with them they do harm. But the rest of mankind, who were not killed by these plagues, did not repent of the works of their hands, that they should not worship demons, and idols of gold, silver, brass, stone, and wood, which can neither see nor hear nor walk. And they did not repent of their murders or their sorceries or their sexual immorality or their thefts.”
Revelation 9:18-21 NKJV
“And the winepress was trampled outside the city, and blood came out of the winepress, up to the horses’ bridles, for one thousand six hundred furlongs.”
Revelation 14:20 NKJV
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ReplyDeleteYou had two dimensions and assumed a 3D cylinder?
ReplyDeleteSo much math went wrong in this article, I'll fix it below:
ReplyDeleteBeginning with what was seen by Yochanan was a distance from one end to another... in other words DIAMETER, NOT RADIUS! So the radius of the lake of blood was actually 91.965 modern miles.
1) Area = Pi(r)^2 = 3.14(91.965)^2 = 26,557 Square Miles of Blood
Horses Bridles can now be from 4-6 ft. in height. Consider horses are bred larger than they were compared to thousands of years ago. We're using 4 ft. height to be conservative. But first we must convert square miles to square feet.
2) 1 square mile = 27,878,400 square feet...
3) Area = 26,557 x 27,878,400 = 740,366,668,800 Total Square Feet
4) Volume = Area x Height = 740,366,668,800 x 4 = 2,961,466,700,000 Total Cubic Feet
Next, let's convert cubic feet into cubic meters. 1 cubic foot = .0283168 cubic meter.
5) 2,961,466,700,000 x .0283168 = 83,859,260,250 Cubic Meters of Blood
Time to convert this volume into Liters of Blood... Each cubic meter holds 1,000 Liters of Blood.
6) 83,859,260,250 x 1,000 = 83,859,260,250,000 Trillion Liters of Blood!
Last Step! Let's find out how many people by dividing the Liters of Blood by 5.5 Liter per person.
7) 83,859,260,250,000 / 5.5 = 15,247,138,000,000 Trillion People!
But if the Earth only currently has 7,600,000,000 Billion People Living (as of 2020) How is this possible?
Simple... because these aren't the winepressed bodies of the wicked AT THAT TIME... it's the winepressed bodies of ALL UNSAVED HUMANITY since CREATION!
Well the blowed flowed right? The volume of blood will have dead bodies filling it and dying bodies with blood flowing out. So that accounts for less people. But that's still leaves excess blood without bodies? Maybe the bodies are blown up somewhat liquefying them. So if that is partially the case then you can recalculate the space with a rough estimate of bodies in that state. You rarely find blood without a body nearby. Sorry if someone else already covered this. I didn't want to read through 4 years of speculation and calculations. Glad there are other "sickos" (lol) like me just curious about this strange verse.
DeleteGod Bless, Everyone!
So much tilting at windmills here. Ugh! Quibbling about gallons of blood and dead body count. How about go love all your neighbors of every tribe, language, nation and people!? That God's goal in the end, the marriage of heaven and earth. "On earth as it is in heaven" rings a bell.
ReplyDeleteWhat if these harvest was actually over thousands of years. The numbers were accumulated? We really don't know anything, but I do know who he is talking about. The harvest is the unsaved. So it is not me.
ReplyDeleteThe harvest is plentiful and ripe for the pickings! So we need to get to work and speak with as many people as we can. Be a witness in our everyday lives. Let our light shine on others so Christ can shine through. We May not be the actual person that leads someone to the Lord. But maybe God can use us to plant the seed so that person will listen to someone else that comes along behind us.
Lets love one another and show we care for others. I am Praying we all can be part of Gods work and focus on the real meat of this writing. When we walk down the street most of the people we see are not a follower of Jesus. This is the ripe harvest and its ready for the picking. Let us pick one at a time and gather bundles for our Lord Jesus Christ. So the ones we can find will not be part of this harvest and crushed like grapes. But they too can have Christ in their live and claim the promise of the forgiveness of sins and eternal life!
Love you all, have a Blessed day
It might be noted that the originator of this discussion chose to convert a distance of 1,600 stadia into an area, which is not substantiated by the scripture. It simply mentions a distance and depth, without giving a width. We should not simply guess what that may or may not have meant. After all, v20 (in most translations) says the blood 'flowed', indicating a river or stream, not a lake. I am inclined towards the view above that second sweep of the sickle will have included all historic bodies however, as V14 says the sickle was 'upon' the earth whereas the second sweeping was 'into' the earth.
ReplyDeleteIn a wine press isnt everything thrown into it? Skin, pulp and all? Lets suppose an asteroid landed on them and crushed them. That number might be closer to the real thing.
ReplyDeleteEver consider "blood as high as horse's bridle" to be person of that height (not a puddle of blood but a living vessel) that would become His wraith upon the earth?
ReplyDeletePray asking the Holy Spirit to reveal His truth and lean not onto your own understanding. If we read the first part of the Chapter we will gather that the angel is reaping God's harvest or His chosen people; those who have the testimony of Jesus Christ and who keep His commandments, since it is these that also represent the grapes being thrown into the wine press it therefore can only be the blood of these righteous ones, from the beginning of creation to the time of Christ's return, that's why God also said he who endures to the end shall receive a crown, a new name, will be clothes in white rament and He shall wipe every tear from their eye. God bless you all.
ReplyDeleteRead The Bible as it was written. "And it shall FLOW 200 miles (approx). There is no mention of lakes or ponds or catch basins. Sounds like a river to me if I read it exactly as it's written. Try not to change it into something that may try to prove that God is a liar or John for that matter. Lakes and ponds or catch basins don't FLOW. Seeing how God's word out of his mouth is GOLDEN. I would base my miscalculation that don't match what GOD said as an indicator that my facts and formulas are incorrect.
ReplyDeleteYour MATH is WRONG. RE:Battle of Armageddon:
ReplyDeleteSome speculate that it could be a drone army. I'd always wondered the volume of blood required to be "up to the horses bridles for a distance of 1,600 stadia" (does not state the width if this volume).
Drones don't have blood. Has to be a massive human army to get blood 4-6 feet deep (=1.5 to 2 meters high) and 290 kilometers (180 miles) long. Reference:
Revelation 14:20.
200,000,000 = 1.1 Million soldiers per mile. Each adult has 5 liters of blood. So that is 1.3 Million gallons of blood per mile. If the river or pool of blood is 4' deep (not 6' deep), and it is 8' wide, then it takes exactly 1.3 Million gallons of any liquid to fill each mile. I just did the math / not hard to calculate.
So glad that Christians won't be down here on earth at that time, but raptured or passed on to Heaven well before that.
Think math is off. Stadion (i.e. the racetrack) is approximately 200mx30mx1.5m (using ur horse measurement x 1600 And u get 14.4B Liters which is actually roughly 1/3rd the population of the planet in just a few years..
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